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12
'We've had enough of this fundamentalist bullshit, and when you behave like members of civilised society you can have a seat. Until you stop killing women and Christians and Jews you will not be heard.'
Sounds like a fine position to me.
15
Unfortunately, it's a bunch of military fascists sending that message by murdering religious fascists. Not that I expect either group to behave like civilized beings.
3
'.. Until you stop killing women and Christians and Jews you will not be heard.'
Mmm. Exchange the women/Christians/Jews bit for 'people' and I'm right there with you. Problem is: this carnage doesn't appear to play favourites.
That's the thing about mob 'justice' though: one never knows whether one is right on target, or whether one's aim is straight. :(
1
I am choosing the lesser of two evils. Until there is better distribution of wealth and education in Africa this is the way shit is going to get done.
2
It seems to me that these 'fundamentalists' were elected in a free & fair election.
The army staged a coup.
Nobody was being killed - not even Jews or women or Christians, however that hierarchy works - til that point.
Does anyone know what the endgame of "destabilize the middle east" is for US Imperial ambitions? Is it just oil? Or is there more to it?
15
We have 2-3 goals in the ME:
1) Protect Israel, no matter what they do.
2) Maintain access to oil
3) Allow use of airspace or allow military bases to bomb countries that don't follow these rules.
The principles of democracy, civil rights, etc. are there in the background but are selectively enforced, depending on 1-3.
But to what end, really? World War? Russia, China and Iran have already drawn a line against US ambitions re: Syria. We don't have any friends in Afghanistan anymore and Pakistan is a toss up. Now Egypt collapses? Under US funding? I mean...it wouldn't be wrong for certain nations to start to get nervous. And nervous nations with nukes (including Israel) set the stage for some truly scary shit to go down. But...I have a wild imagination...so that's why I asked the commentariat, hoping someone can say, "Chill...its just about the oil brah!"
1
I think in general the Mideast is doing a swell job of destabilizing itself. While Iraq certainly was a complete clusterfuck, what we're seeing here is more than just the aftershock of that war and I think people overestimate the effect of US diplomatic and/or covert work in that area.
Afghanistan and Pakistan are not really located in the Middle East, they're located in Central Asia. Also, despite a destabilized Egypt and Syria there are plenty of other dependable US aligned power players in the region. Saudi Arabia and Turkey are both incredibly stable.
2
Christ, it's like the Middle East is a huge "Ethical Conundrum" generator.
On one hand, we have the democratically elected government. Unfortunately, that government is both conservative (in the Middle Eastern context, meaning "utterly whack") and overtly religious (see previous). Despite my instinctive sympathy towards democracy, my pragmatic side tells me that Morsi's government probably wouldn't be positive for anyone, especially Egypt's embattled minorities.
On the other hand, we have a military coup d'etat (and it is that. Let's not prevaricate) that is currently ruling through naked force. An army turning its guns on the populace always has huge and negative consequences, usually radicalizing the opposition. In all probability, the military is driving Egypt straight at a civil war.
My advice? Let them hash it out. This is none of our business, and we'll likely have another Iran on our hands if we make it so.
"let the hash it out" sounds like a good idea until you realize that's your cousins, aunts, uncles, friends, etc that could be killed in this civil war (can we call it that?).
UGH.
Much as it rebels against my liberalism, the major lesson of the past 60 years has been that, when a far-off outside power interferes in an internal matter, all they usually get is (a) a bloody nose, and (b) the lasting ingratitude/hatred of all concerned. Sadly, whatever comes of this, the Egyptian people will have to bring upon themselves.
can the same be said about the US staying out of the Rwandan genocide? I know the UN was there but they actually made the situation worse. I was/against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars but can I morally say that I'd be against he US sending troops to Rwanda, Syria, Egypt, etc? I don't know... I don't think so.
1
The most interesting bit to me is that as a result of the unrest, the economy of Egypt has been at a standstill for long enough that they're virtually bankrupt. According to the IMF they have 3 month's worth of imports, and then it's game over. Egypt, just last week, asked the IMF for a $5 billion loan. Internal demand is holding up but for how long? Inflation has been around 50% over the past 3 years (call it about +15% annually). Foreign investments have been divided by 17 (!) since 2008-9. Add to that the rampant unemployment, and it paints a pretty bleak picture.
So, you ask, who's been bankrolling them while they lobbed molotovs at each other? $12 billion that were loaned to them by Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Koweït - the first two being pretty hardcore religious nations (especially SA, but the UAE isn't bad either outside of Dubai and Abu Dhabi). So essentially, the Egyptians (or at least the army) are publically kicking out the radicals while letting them in through the backdoor by giving them a financial hold that they wouldn't have otherwise.
"May you live in interesting times"...
