What Should Be Done About Detroit? A Gawker Internal Debate
Detroit is bankrupt. The once-great city languishes deep in debt, unable to provide basic city services, as it debates cutting pensions and selling off the city's art collection. What's the right move? We, the writers of Gawker, have very strong opinions.
"I wanna write a thing saying Detroit should sell the art in their museum," I said in our internal "Campfire" chat this morning. The following debate ensued.
Tom S. | Why not just appropriate money from the rich people and keep the art? |
John C. | give the art to the poor |
Tom S. | It feels like your Peter Singer stuff is getting in the way of your communist principles, Hamilton. |
Max R. | burn the art and kill the rich |
Cord J. | build homes for the poor with the unused paintings |
Hamilton N. | basic city services are more important than opulent art |
Sam B. | lean-tos made out of paintings |
Tom S. | Isn't that basically the New York Post's argument today, though, Hamilton? |
Hamilton N. | no |
Max R. | the art is a relic and ideological tool of class oppression and must be destroyed. the rich must be made to answer for their crimes and hung in the city square. |
Tom S. | The poor don't NEED art. |
John C. | wow check yr priv tom |
Hamilton N. | if you were building a city, would you build it with a billion dollars of art in a museum and no street lights? |
John C. | "poor people are beyond enlightment, why bother"—tom scocca |
Tom S. | I was trying to translate Hamilton's argument, John. |
Sam B. | what's the most affordable form of art |
Hamilton N. | that's insane |
Sam B. | dance I guess |
Tom S. | I am arguing the opposite. |
Hamilton N. | my only argument is an art museum is not as important as, for example, a fire department. |
when it comes to city services. | |
Max R. | yeah but hamilton you're limiting yourself |
Tom S. | That this utilitarian ethos is in harmony with the rich people's ideology that there should be nothing provided to the poor beyond the most grudging minimum. |
9:55 AM | |
Tom S. | Singer-style utilitarianism is not particularly uplifting when you apply it to OTHER people. |
Hamilton N. | lol |
Max R. | why "sell the art to the rich" when "take money from the rich to fund the city services AND the art museum" works even better |
Tom S. | Exactly. |
Max has it. | |
Hamilton N. | Singer advocates essentially taxing the rich to near poverty |
I think you are misrepresenting his ethic | |
John C. | are there any other things the city of detroit has access to by way of raising funds? |
Hamilton N. | where are all these mythical rich people in detroit you're gonna tax to pay for that? |
Sam B. | they should sell the fucking sports teams |
John C. | the city doesn't own the sports teams |
Sam B. | seize them |
seize the pistons | |
now there's a post | |
Hamilton N. | good brainstorming happening here |
Adam W. | rename the sports teams in the name of the people |
The Seattle Sans-Culottes | |
Tom S. | Who says the rich people who get taxed have to be in Detroit? |
John C. | seize all land in the city and sell it to peter theil |
Max R. | no one "owns" anything, property is a fiction |
Caity W. | has entered the room |
Adam W. | The Detroit Mensheviki |
Max R. | the city "owns" the sports teams just as much as any one person does |
Sam B. | let every detroit resident play on the sports teams, helps unemployment |
John C. | Detroit Levies Unprecedented Tax on Los Angelinos |
Hamilton N. | I'm afraid detroit needs all the help it can get |
and it's sitting on a billion dollars of art | |
so get that money | |
you can always make more art | |
Adam W. | i would totally argue the other side of that, hamilton |
Hamilton N. | art is free. |
Sam B. | they'll just spend it, what's the point |
John C. | #banksy |
Tom S. | But this "choice" you posit, between having art and having fire departments, is a choice forced on the city by the overall economic system of oppression. |
Max R. | fyi oakland county, the detroit suburbs, is among the wealthiest in the US |
Tom S. | You are literally arguing the Koch position, Hamilton. |
Max R. | macomb isn't too shabby either |
there's plenty of money around detroit | |
Hamilton N. | yeah that's nice but right this minute detroit is broke and I don't see full communism coming down in the next few months |
Sam B. | there's no problem that can't be fixed via seizures |
Max R. | you lack vision |
Adam W. | tom's right |
Max R. | you will be hung with the rest of them when the time comes |
John C. | well actually impoverished enraged detroiters will be a suitable revolutionary vanguard |
Hamilton N. | We let detroit go to hell because we disagree with the theoretical tenets of capitalism. |
John C. | so it would be best for them to remain without services |
Tom S. | So you sell the art and buy a tiny bit of time and then there's no art and the city goes bankrupt again and still the rich suburbs, which got rich sucking the money and life out of the city, will be rich. |
Hamilton N. | I'm sure the dead detroit residents who couldn't get an ambulance would support that |
Max R. | "sell the art because communism isnt coming soon" is morally indistinguishable from "sell the art because captialism demands we make a choice between it and city services" |
10:00 AM | |
John C. | right but the more dead detroiters the more likely the underclasses will be to rise up |
Tom S. | Max is correct. |
Adam W. | selling the art doesn't get them an ambulance any faster |
Tom S. | Why don't we sell off Detroiters' kidneys? |
Hamilton N. | I'm gonna write my post in the voice of a detroit person who just got shot and can't get an ambulance |
Max R. | for what its worth hamilton i don't think your gawker post will change much |
so you might as well shoot for the stars | |
Tom S. | It will however give ammunition to the readers who've decided you're a libertarian apologist. |
Hamilton N. | well fed and safe new yorkers believe detroit should have an art museum, and no street lights. |
John C. | the money raised from the sale of art won't go to services |
Hamilton N. | it will go to paying off the city's bankruptcy |
John C. | it will go to pensions for people no longer providing services |
right it will go to creditors | |
bond holders | |
pensioners | |
Hamilton N. | yes |
the bankruptcy has to be settled before the city can move on | |
it doesn't magically disappear with no money | |
Adam W. | all i'm saying, hamilton, is you know who else would write a "sell detroit's art" post? Matt Yglesias. |
Tom S. | So you are arguing for the extraction of money from Detroit, plain and simple. |
YES | |
That is exactly correct. | |
You are making a Matt Yglesias argument, Hamilton. | |
Max R. | hahahahaha owned |
Hamilton N. | is "ambulances are more important than art" a matt yglesias argument? |
Max R. | hamilton nolan, gawker's matt yglesias |
Hamilton N. | if so I agree. |
John C. | but maybe if you make it yglesias will disagree with you |
that could be fun | |
Hamilton N. | I haven't heard a good "art is more important than ambulances" counter argument here |
Tom S. | The point is, Hamilton, that you are legitimating the false and cruel choice between ambulances and art by endorsing it. |
John C. | but the sale of art has nothing to do with ambulances |
you're saying "creditors are more important than art" | |
Tom S. | Yes. |
John C. | "the satisfaction of debt is more important than art" |
Hamilton N. | WHERE do you people think the money is going to come from for this bankruptcy? |
the federal govt? | |
Tom S. | You are applauding economic injustice. |
Hamilton N. | and who takes the haircut? |
Tom S. | And calling it reason. |
John C. | that would be one possible solution |
where did the money come from to bail out GM? | |
where did the money come from to bail out AIG? | |
Tom S. | EXACTLY |
John C. | JP Morgan is cutting a $13 billion check right now to the feds |
Hamilton N. | oh lord |
John C. | how much does detroit owe again? |
10:05 AM | |
Tom S. | "Banks cannot go out of business, but art museums should go out of business" - Hamilton Nolan |
Hamilton N. | kindergarten up in here |
John C. | hamilton what's the difference between yr argument and "poor people should sell their TV before they get food stamps" |
Tom S. | This is why it's a Yglesias argument. |
Hamilton N. | you do realize that if a city borrows money.. and then is run in a corrupt manner.. and then says it won't pay the money back.. there are consequences for that |
Adam W. | hamilton, you're one heartbeat away from arguing that public services are bromides for an irrational society of self-sacrificers. ayn rand wants her shtick back |
Tom S. | Again, yes, exactly. |
Adam W. | and also, ayn rand would like to buy some of that art, please |
Hamilton N. | magical thinking |
do you realize that detroit might, at some point in the future, like to issue bonds? | |
like every other city | |
John C. | alright write it hamilton and we'll take it to kimja |
or whatever it's called | |
Hamilton N. | hey why not just print money on lollipops |
problem solved | |
Tom S. | No, Hamilton, magical thinking is the belief that looting the art museum will do anything at all to alleviate any of the causes of Detroit's misery. |
John C. | who wants to take bets on how long it takes nick denton to write an approving comment? |
Tom S. | It's just more bullshit austerity. |
Hamilton N. | well it'll get em $500 million |
that's something | |
Tom S. | Well now you're also deep into another fallacy. |
John C. | a better post would be "give the jpmorgan money to detroit" |
Tom S. | Also incredibly popular with the right-wingers who want to loot the public possessions. |
Which is that the responsible thing to do is to sell assets. | |
Hamilton N. | yes... that is the responsible thing to do, if the choice is between luxury assets and basic services |
Tom S. | Like Bloomberg trying to sell off city-owned real estate and rent back the property. |
Once you sell the assets, they're gone. | |
Hamilton N. | so? it's a painting |
get some more when you can afford street lights | |
Tom S. | See, this is exactly what's blockheaded about Singerism. |
10:10 AM | |
Tom S. | Let's sell everything in Detroit, every tree and building and piece of land, and buy a bunch of shipping containers and stack them up and make the people live in them. |
Hamilton N. | ... |
Tom S. | Feed them lentils. |
They don't NEED that stuff. | |
Much more ethical to strip their lives down to the true necessities. | |
Hamilton N. | your position is: let's maintain this crumbling city as it is as its residents starve and die, for nostalgia's sake |
why feed them lentils when we could let them STARVE instead, while looking at art? | |
Max R. | are ppl in detroit starving? |
Taylor B. | looks like i missed some fun stuff in campfire |
Tom S. | My position is that you are trying to propitiate the forces that have destroyed the city by doing more damage to the city. |
John C. | there are starving people everywhere |
Max R. | not seeing a lot of stories about people in detroit starving |
Hamilton N. | the forces that destroyed the city besides capitalism in general are: corrupt city govt. |
Taylor B. | ban detroit, problem solved |
Max R. | "besides capitalism in general" is a hell of a clause |
Tom S. | Banning Detroit is not bad. |
Hamilton N. | they're a loser in post industrial america |
I'm fine with banning detroit and not rebuilding new orleans either | |
Max R. | "setting aside the massive and all-consuming system of injustice," some guys took kickbacks |
Taylor B. | who needs to live that far north anyway |
Hamilton N. | look to the future not the past |
Tom S. | Sell the art and everything else and relocate the citizens in refugee camps in the surrounding suburbs. |
That would at least be honest. | |
Hamilton N. | the most satisfying part of this argument is the total lack of a rational counter-proposal |
"do something about capitalism" | |
Max R. | lol yes |
your opponents are too irrational to argue with | |
10:15 AM | |
Tom S. | Yes, "reason," standard libertarian argument. |
Hamilton N. | is asking for a rational counter proposal a dirty tactic? |
Tom S. | "Dumb unreasonable people keep yelling about 'justice' instead of focusing on real things." |
Hamilton N. | how dare you ask for a solution! |
Tom S. | I offered plenty of solutions. |
Make them all sell kidneys. | |
Raze the city and put them in refugee camps. | |
Eminently rational. | |
What's your objection? | |
Hamilton N. | In the absence of an actual counter proposal I have to conclude that I won the argument. |
Tom S. | That is exactly why contemporary decadent capitalism is destroying everything, Hamilton. |
John C. | the counterproposal is to continue to permit detroit to slide into penury and despair |
Hamilton N. | can I just copy/ paste this whole discussion and use it for the post |
Tom S. | "You are incapable of arguing rationally with me, on the terms I have dictated, therefore my policy carries the day." |
Hamilton N. | we've invested a lot of time here. |
Max R. | hahaha you should, hamilton |
John C. | thereby increasing pressure on global capitalism and throwing its internal contradictions into sharp relief |
Sam B. | nick would love a copy/paste |
Hamilton N. | great. |